Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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The Impossibility of Death


Displaying posts 61 - 90 of 112 in total
Mon, 17 Aug 2015 #61
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Only if we look and listen from the 'background', which distorts the listening. Without that interference, everything is new!

Yes, and this is precisely what I am getting at when I say that there is no death. There is the state of "not being," surely, but without a background, there cannot possibly be death -- there is nothing to die.

The background is thought. Without the background of thought, every moment is new.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Mon, 17 Aug 2015.

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #62
Thumb_stringio D Rajagopal United States 4 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

this might not be the right thread but i wanted to ask if krishnamurti believed in reincarnation or an afterlife???? i am hindu and we believe in reincarnation and that the atman or soul comes back over and over. we also beleive in avatars, like lord krishna and lord rama, who come back over and over to destroy the evil and uphold good.does krishnamurti believe in that too????? i have only read little so not sure where he stands on this i think he dismises all of this, but not sure and not sure why he would, he was raised a brahmin in the hindu tradition too.

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #63
Thumb_stringio D Rajagopal United States 4 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

my husband and i go to see amma, the hugging saint, every time she comes to los angeles. we just saw her in june, what a thrill it is to get a hug from a living saint, and to millions of hindus she is seen as an incarnation of the divine mother kali. she definitely teaches reincarnation, and the hindu dharma. i think krishnamurti teaches similar, just clothed in a differnet language, but still the hindu dharma.

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #64
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Shashi Patel wrote:
i think krishnamurti teaches similar, just clothed in a differnet language, but still the hindu dharma.

I think you would have to explain what the "hindu dharma" is, Shashi.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #65
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5853 posts in this forum Offline

Shashi Patel wrote:
this might not be the right thread but i wanted to ask if krishnamurti believed in reincarnation or an afterlife????

Krishnamurti believed in nothing. He often claimed to have read no religious books or books on psychology. He wrote religions off as escapes from what is by trying to find security and hope in dogma, ceremonies and rituals. He saw organized religion as enslaving the mind.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 23 Aug 2015.

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #66
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5853 posts in this forum Offline

Shashi Patel wrote:
i think krishnamurti teaches similar, just clothed in a differnet language, but still the hindu dharma.

Like you wrote above: You haven't read or don't know much about Krishnamurti. What K pointed out has nothing to do with Hinduism or any other religion. If you are looking for reinforcement for your present religious beliefs you won't get it from Krishnamurti. On the contrary he pointed out how all organized religion enslaves the mind.

If, on the other hand, you are prepared to let go of everything you believe in, everything you think is sacred, including seeking entertainment from things like hugging "saints" you might find Krishnamurti very interesting.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Sun, 23 Aug 2015.

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #67
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
things like hugging "saints"

If I grew a long white beard and dressed in robes, smiled a lot and called myself the "hugging father" I'm sure people would come to me from all over the globe to receive hugs. Many hundreds of them would feel a tremendous rush of energy and know for sure that I was the 'one.' I wouldn't charge a dime but would be shrewd enough to find a little helper who also smiled a lot and whom I'd supply with a small donation plate.

As people began to write about me and the things they'd experienced after meeting with me, if only for a few seconds, people's experiences would grow ever more deeper with each hug. Some would even say they'd had an epiphany when my private jet passed overhead. I'd be shy of being proclaimed a saint at first of course, because I am so humble . . . and this very humility, this very shrugging off of titles, would ensure a steady stream of well-healed devotees at my door.

Finally I would be forced to accept the inevitable, build an ashram, have hospitals named after me and meet all the top people.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #68
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5853 posts in this forum Offline

Exactly-#67. I'm sure what you describe has been the template for droves of "holy persons". Seems to me I've heard of a "Saint Paul" before. I think you could pull it off Paul.

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #69
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Shashi Patel wrote:
. . . i wanted to ask if krishnamurti believed in reincarnation or an afterlife? . . . i have only read little so not sure where he stands on this i think he dismises all of this, but not sure and not sure why he would . . .

It would be best, Shashi, if you read what Krishnamurti himself had to say on the subject.

I'm sure Krishnamurti did not simply "dismiss" reincarnation. He was careful not to dismiss anything out of hand. He looked into things for himself, and I would say that is what we should do. Why should we accept what anybody says, avatar, atman, hindu christian, saint -- Krishnamurti himself? We look for ourselves. We see for ourselves. We understand for ourselves.

Reading what Krishnamurti had to say does not lead to believing what Krishnamurti said. Hope you see this.

max

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #70
Thumb_dev Dev Singh United States 48 posts in this forum Offline

FYI: Shasi Patel is the latest incarnation of 'steve' and has been removed from the forum.

Kinfonet Admin

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #71
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

This is my first post, so hello to everyone.
To Max Greene, it all seems a bit abstract to me. Isn't death central to Krishnamurti's view? I don't really understand what you mean? I thought that he said that we die to every moment.
I've read Krishnamurti for quite a long time but it's been a solitary thing, so I might not be up to others interpretations of what he said. Which I suppose isn't a bad thing.
Everything dies, I mean every individual organism. That's of course, unless you're talking about all the ingredients of our universe being transformed into different forms through death, like a pantheistic view of everything, as if seeing it from some neutral vantage point.
I can see what you mean from the observer's point of view - you know, one moment after another. But does that mean that you've got to ignore any common sense about cause and effect?
If death is an impossibility, doesn't that just mean that you're shielding your eyes from the unpleasant truth?
As I say, maybe I'm missing the obvious point here.

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #72
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Welcome to Kinfonet, Brian,

Here is why I see there as being no death:

We live in the present moment. The present is reality, all that there is. When we compare this present reality to the image we carry in our mind of a present moment that is past, we say, "Oh, so-and-so is no more. He has died." But when we make no comparison, old so-and-so is certainly gone, but we are looking without comparison, and hence no death is recognized. We are aware only of the present -- reality.

Can we remember without comparison? This is the same as asking whether we can remember without thinking. Can we?

max

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #73
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5853 posts in this forum Offline

Dev Singh wrote:
FYI: Shasi Patel is the latest incarnation of 'steve' and has been removed from the forum.

Thanks for picking up on that Dev. I missed it myself.

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #74
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Dev Singh wrote:
FYI: Shasi Patel is the latest incarnation of 'steve' and has been removed from the forum.

Damn . . . now I'll never know the secret of "hindu dharma."

I see Steve changed his name to Rajagopol before getting the bum's rush. In my response to 'Shasi' I thought about adding "if that's really your name" but decided to give the benefit of the doubt. What is wrong with the dude?

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #75
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Brian Smith wrote:
This is my first post, so hello to everyone.

Right. Goodbye.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Sun, 23 Aug 2015 #76
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

D Rajagopal wrote:
i have only read little

as quite distinct from . . .

Brian Smith wrote:
I've read Krishnamurti for quite a long time

. . . so there's no possible connection, right?

What I find so quaint is the belief that if you set up a false avatar and throw in a couple of position statements, then people will establish an immediate image of you and believe in it . . . as if you were real. No, real people do not come in like that.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #77
Thumb_stringio vodivad livap United States 6 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Hey Pavil, you dont know what you are talking about dude! Brian is a newcomer here as is Aub. You and Jack are both full of it and need to be terminated.

God knows why Dev puts up with the likes of you guys!

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #78
Thumb_stringio vodivad livap United States 6 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
Right. Goodbye.

I dont blame him if he lives after the way you and the other gang accuses everyone of being either me or John!

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #79
Thumb_stringio vodivad livap United States 6 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
Damn . . . now I'll never know the secret of "hindu dharma."

I typed up the secret, but your good friend Dev, deleted me as i was hitting send to that very post. You can thank him for that.

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #80
Thumb_stringio vodivad livap United States 6 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Jack Pine wrote:
Thanks for picking up on that Dev. I missed it myself.

Of course you missed it Jack, i said nothing wrong and was on topic. The only reason Dev booted me is because he is afraid of what i have to say. There was no good reason for Dev to eliminate Shashi. Why is he so afraid to let other voices speak here besides the super egos?

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #81
Thumb_stringio vodivad livap United States 6 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
What I find so quaint is the belief that if you set up a false avatar and throw in a couple of position statements, then people will establish an immediate image of you and believe in it . . . as if you were real. No, real people do not come in like that.

Sort of like what you did Pavil. Name change, location change. You dont live in Poland you friggin liar. Your name is not Pavil. You have been asked to not come back here, and you are here. So you have no right to say anything about me.

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #82
Thumb_stringio vodivad livap United States 6 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

vodivad livap has spoken. He is now leaving again, but he was cut off so abruptly by the moderator right in the middle of a post. He had to answer what these bozos had to say. They sure like to lick up to the moderator, haha, i have noticed. Continue on guys, i will be around and watching and waiting, haha. Till we meet again......

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #83
Thumb_img_0244 Jack Pine United States 5853 posts in this forum Offline

vodivad livap wrote:
Of course you missed it Jack, i said nothing wrong and was on topic.

Actually you were not on topic and what you wrote was ridiculous. Everything you said was garbage but it was a different kind of garbage from your usual garbage. The only thing I haven't figured out yet is whether you are a little boy or a little girl. There are a lot of feminine characteristics about you. You're acting very childish.

This post was last updated by Jack Pine Mon, 24 Aug 2015.

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #84
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
Right. Goodbye.

Interesting response to my first post. I see I've fallen on my feet here.

This post was last updated by Brian Smith (account deleted) Mon, 24 Aug 2015.

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #85
Thumb_stringio mike c United States 941 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Brian Smith wrote:
Pavil Davidov wrote:
Right. Goodbye.

Interesting response to my first post. I see I've fallen on my feet here.

Brian, several people have been kicked off here for various reasons and then come back under fake names, several times each. I think Pavil (not his original name either) thought you were one of these phonies. I don't know why.

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #86
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Guilty until proven innocent. I see.

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #87
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

mike c wrote:
Brian, several people have been kicked off here for various reasons and then come back under fake names, several times each. I think Pavil (not his original name either) thought you were one of these phonies. I don't know why.

Timing and tone. For instance . . .

Brian Smith wrote:
Guilty until proven innocent. I see.

Of course I may be reading into things more than there is there. That's certainly possible and if so, many apologies.

A guy joins the site just after the Perky troll has been thrown off. He does not fill in any profile, gives the name "Smith" (which may be real, who knows?) and immediately launches into a critical analysis of another poster. He uses well-worn troll phrases to create an immediate image etc. All this may be perfectly legit and a great coincidence. Who's to know?

Steve was right, Pavil Davidov is not my real name. I cannot open an account in my real name as the site says that name is taken. Pavil is Polish for Paul and Davidovic is Polish for Davidson. My family emigrated from Poland more than a century ago. Those who remained were murdered by the Nazis. I write in my own style, am consistent in that and have no interest in fooling anyone as to who I am. People know I'm based in Brasil, not Poland nor London. There are no secrets at all. Steve came on with a false name, talking of a non-existent husband and non-existent events, in a false voice including bad spellings, in order precisely to fool people.

"Brian," if that's his real name, made some good points. That's fine, whoever he is. But, if he turns out to be trolling then we'll find out quite soon. In the meantime he's welcome here, as everyone else. I just expressed my doubts, for the reasons given.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #88
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Pavil Davidov wrote:
Who's to know?

That would be a good start.

Pavil Davidov wrote:
In the meantime he's welcome here

conditionally, clearly.

Pavil Davidov wrote:
He uses well-worn troll phrases to create an immediate image etc. All this may be perfectly legit and a great coincidence. Who's to know?

I'm sorry I use well-worn troll phrases. I'll make an extra effort to think how I can be more spontaneous in the future.
I'm sorry I'm a suspicious character. But really, is this Krishnamurti world so insular that all the newcomers can only be exiled trolls eternally regurgitated?
I can see that some people might not want me here being as I really am a troll - oh shit, what a giveaway. But no, I am who I say I am, I'm not someone who's come back after being booted out, and now I'm not sure I should have even come here the first time.
Anyway, should I survive the surveillance, I'd look forward to some Special K discussions in the future.

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #89
Thumb_stringio Pavil Davidov Poland 4402 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

All very defensive 'Brian.' Leave it behind now. I've stated my doubt and the reasons for it. Man up now.

"Wherever you go, there you are." Insight from Mullah Nasruddin

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Mon, 24 Aug 2015 #90
Thumb_stringio Brian Smith United Kingdom 212 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Yes let's put it all behind us. I'm now fully manned up, minus the quotation marks.

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