Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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QOTD 08-19-15


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Wed, 19 Aug 2015 #1
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3181 posts in this forum Offline

"After all, when we talk about transformation, what do we mean? The cessation of a problem, surely. Why does a man want to be transformed? Because he is in misery, in conflict, because he has daily anxieties; and there can be transformation, resolution of the problem, only when the mind, the thinker who is the creator of that problem, understands himself - which means, when the thought process about a problem comes to an end. You do this always when there is an acute problem. You think about it, you worry about it, and thought can go no further; and you leave it. Then in that quietness the problem is understood and resolved, and in that moment there is immediate transformation."

Don't we all think about our problems....various issues which confuse or trouble us in our daily lives....with family, job, money, overeating or drinking, smoking? K. says that this thinking is the very factor which prevents understanding the problem. Yet, thought is there, right? It's a factor in our daily living. The thoughts, worries, anxieties, are present in most of us. Any comments on the excerpt quoted above from K's Public Talk 28th March, 1948 | Mumbai, India?

Let it Be

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Wed, 19 Aug 2015 #2
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
. . . this thinking is the very factor which prevents understanding the problem. Yet, thought is there, right? It's a factor in our daily living.

Yes, it is thinking that prevents understanding. Thinking deals with memory and with memory only. Problems are not memories, problems are now, something that needs attention. It is only with awareness that problems can be understood and choiceless action taken.

max

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Wed, 19 Aug 2015 #3
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1404 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
Don't we all think about our problems....various issues which confuse or trouble us in our daily lives....

The problem can also be being inattentive:

Can you practice awareness? If you are 'practicing' awareness, then you are being inattentive. So, be aware of inattention, you do not have to practice. You do not have to go to Burma, China, India, places which are romantic but not factual. I remember once travelling in a car in India with a group of people. I was sitting in the front with the driver. There were three behind who were talking about awareness, wanting to discuss with me what awareness is. The car was going very fast. A goat was in the road, and the driver did not pay much attention and ran over the poor animal. The gentlemen behind were discussing what is awareness, but they never knew what had happened! You laugh, but that is what we are all doing.

The Flight of the Eagle,41

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Wed, 19 Aug 2015 #4
Thumb_stringio aub b France 112 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

The only problem I can think of is the one of the attachment of human beings to their past experiences.

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Wed, 19 Aug 2015 #5
Thumb_stringio Huguette . Canada 545 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
"...there can be transformation, resolution of the problem, only when the mind, the thinker who is the creator of that problem, understands himself - which means, when the thought process about a problem comes to an end."

When the thinker is suffering, he or she is not relieved or helped by knowledge of any sort, whether knowlege comes from himself or from external sources: for example, knowing the sequence of events, knowing who is at fault, knowing who to blame, knowing what others have done in such circumstances, deciding on any course of action, or knowing that awareness is all he needs - none of it relieves suffering, as I see it. Action based on such knowledge is becoming, isn’t it - "I will do this from now on, this is going to be my course of action"? In the planning, expectation, anticipation, certainty of the outcome, thought is still active. Whereas if “the thinker who is the creator of that problem understands himself”, there’s no planning, preconceptions, expectation or certainty of an outcome ... "The thought process about the problem comes to an end”. When the thinker/thought understands that he absolutely cannot solve a problem, he is stuck, he doesn’t know what to do. His efforts to find a solution cease naturally, simply because he sees his limitations, not because the problem is solved.

The understanding by thought that it is limited as to what it can do is, as I see it, a turning point, the dawning of intelligence. Intelligence is not an attribute of the thinker, not mine or yours. The limitation seen by the thinker is that whatever it does to solve problems - knowledge and thinking - is incapable of solving life’s problems.

Once his efforts cease, the problem simply “hangs in the air” before him so to speak (can’t think of another way of expressing it); suffering does not of course simply disappear. This means he is fully facing the problem without any movement, without any deliberation. The turning point, the change of direction, is that, in fully facing the problem, there is then no thinker, no desire, will or effort. Cessation of thought, silence, is attention, full awareness, as I see it. And in awareness, the problem is resolved without any decision being taken by the thinker as to what to do.

This post was last updated by Huguette . Wed, 19 Aug 2015.

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Wed, 19 Aug 2015 #6
Thumb_stringio aub b France 112 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Huguette . wrote:
When the thinker/thought understands that he absolutely cannot solve a problem, he is stuck, he doesn’t know what to do. His efforts to find a solution cease naturally, simply because he sees his limitations, not because the problem is solved.

There is the realization that the thinker can not do anything, that it can not change what has been, what happened, or the course of the past, though it would have liked what is to be different. But now, it knows that there is nothing that it can do to change things. It can not change or influence another to go into its own particular direction. So it remains with suffering...watching, observing...

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #7
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3181 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
The limitation seen by the thinker is that whatever it does to solve problems - knowledge and thinking - is incapable of solving life’s problems.

How did the thinker get to this point? He needs to cross a river and he has learnt how to build a boat. He needs to eat and he learns various ways to find and prepare food. He uses thought and knowledge with good results in practical matters. Why can't thought help in 'psychological' issues....problems in relationship....'internal' problems like fear or anger? Man is so accustomed to using thought in practical matters that he assumes it will help with 'internal' issues. What led you to the understanding that knowledge/thought "is incapable of solving life's problems"?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Thu, 20 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #8
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3181 posts in this forum Offline

max greene wrote:
problems are now, something that needs attention. It is only with awareness that problems can be understood and choiceless action taken.

See my questions to Huguette above, max, and share your input if you feel they are relevant to your statements above. Post 7

Let it Be

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #9
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Tom,

I would say that the thinker (the self) is unable to do anything. The thinker is a psychological entity, totally imaginary. It is the brain going through the machinations of thinking that creates the self -- the thinker.

It is awareness that understands, awareness in the present moment, the only moment that ever is. And as Krishnamurti pointed out, it is not "my" awareness, or "your" awareness, so technically it is incorrect to say "I understand," or "we understand." But the limitations of language can be ignored.

max

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #10
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1404 posts in this forum Offline

Huguette . wrote:
And in awareness, the problem is resolved without any decision being taken by the thinker as to what to do.

So the problem is resolved by action instead of reaction that's the difference.

aub b wrote:
It can not change or influence another to go into its own particular direction.
So it remains with suffering...watching, observing...

that's not true.
it's only working for the one in awareness and can't be transfered to someone in ignorance.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #11
Thumb_stringio aub b France 112 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Awareness is not the key, as it is easy to be aware and say: "oh I am aware, so all is good now". But the next challenge will prove the contrary. Awareness may only be a form of justification for one's own wrongness in action.

Seeing that, one may say: "I have now to be attentive". But look, from awareness to attention, the mind is only escaping the issue, the problem. It does not stay with it, because it is painful to stay with it, therefore it escapes. It does not see that there is no solution, that it can not do anything, that the past is past, though the past is still there, and it contaminates the present. The solution is the ending but the ending is not the solution.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #12
Thumb_stringio aub b France 112 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Discontentment is the key...

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #13
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

aub b wrote:
Discontentment is the key...

Who is it that is discontented? What he "does about" this discontentment will be a reaction to the discontentment.

There is no "I" in awareness, no "I" to say, "Oh, I am aware!" Why is this? Because awareness takes place before memory, thought and the formation of the self.

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 20 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #14
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Wim Opdam wrote:
So the problem is resolved by action instead of reaction that's the difference.

Exactly. "Action" is awareness and understanding. All three are one (awareness; understanding; action) in that what we are aware of, to that extent we understand, and we will always do what we understand, unless prevented from doing so (from the outside or from our own thinking).

So all action is choiceless -- why is choice necessary, when you understand? Choice is a factor when you do not understand and are uncertain. It is reaction, which is always motivated, which is always done for a purpose, that involves choice.

max

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #15
Thumb_stringio aub b France 112 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Max, let's not lose from view what one is talking about, as it is easy to get distracted by ideas, concepts and theories.

As a human being, one is facing numerous conflicts, problems of life. Let's take only one, whatever it is, and without the need to name it. What is important is to understand. So this problem, this particular conflict makes oneself to suffer: there is pain, conflict, etc.

It has been suggested above, let's not escape from that pain, from that suffering. The mind, being aware of the movement of escapes, stays with the pain. It has understood that to escape will not end the suffering. It may cover it up, but suffering will reappear sooner or later, because it has not ended...

So, being serious, honest with oneself, attentive, not fearful about it, the mind does not escape suffering. Then what happens ? Only in experiencing it it is possible to understand. Suffering is a waste of energy, it dissipates one's energy, it is like a conflict that does not end, day after day. I'm sure everyone here understands what I mean.

What I am saying is that if there is no escape, then suffering mutates, transforms itself, and what it transforms into is discontentment. The end of suffering, of fear, of sorrow, of misery, is discontentment. And discontentment makes the mind not waste its energy anymore. On the contrary, discontentment is the gathering of energy, so the mind acquires strength, and it does not suffer, as suffering has ended when discontentment is.

In discontentment, there is natural attention, awareness, but those are not the key, the key is the end of suffering which is discontentment. There is no one to be discontented, only discontentment. And as with suffering, the mind stays with it...

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #16
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

aub b wrote:
It has been suggested above, let's not escape from that pain, from that suffering. The mind, being aware of the movement of escapes, stays with the pain.

When we say, "Let's not escape from that pain," the "us" is the self. The self is not going to escape because thinking and thought are the source of the pain -- and the thinker is the self. The self never understands, because understanding is before memory, thought and the formation of the self.

Understanding comes with awareness. It takes awareness for choiceless, and therefore correct, action. The mind also comes after awareness. Awareness is life itself, the present moment, before the accumulation and sequence creating mind.

max

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #17
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

aub b wrote:
In discontentment, there is natural attention, awareness . . . There is no one to be discontented, only discontentment.

Are you saying that discontentment is one, a unity, with awareness?

I find it difficult to divorce discontentment from someone or something that is discontented. Discontentment leads to the reaction of "becoming" contented, at peace. It takes awareness to realize the ineffectiveness of this reaction.

Does discontentment lead to awareness? Awareness is life itself -- when there is life, there is awareness to the extent the organism has capacity. How can discontentment lead to life?

max

This post was last updated by max greene Thu, 20 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #18
Thumb_stringio aub b France 112 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Understanding is experiencing which is direct awareness, not thinking as intellectualizing or rationalizing.

Direct experiencing is necessary, which is seeing, feeling, living, all in one. So it has to be clear that we are not discussing ideas but facts. The 'we', or the 'I', here is the 'we' and the 'I' of the discussion, it is not meant as anything else, because for experiencing total solitude is necessary.

Am not saying that awareness is the key, because I have seen people in K forums or elsewhere (not saying about you) brandishing the idea of awareness or some other ideas, while at the same time being violent in words and conflictual, like insulting and so on.

What I am saying is that discontentment is not violence. It has nothing to do with violence, in words or otherwise.

It has to do with not escaping from one's own suffering and ending it. The one who uses of violence has not ended suffering for him/herself and for others. It is an escape like intellection and rationalization. So I pointed out the need to understand the many escapes which are the ways of the self. The self is constantly escaping from its own inner realm. Not escaping from one's own inner realm is the beginning of understanding.

Really, it is way way way easier to escape than to not escape. So that's the difficulty actually.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #19
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

aub b wrote:
. . . I pointed out the need to understand the many escapes which are the ways of the self. The self is constantly escaping from its own inner realm. Not escaping from one's own inner realm is the beginning of understanding.

Yes, there is the need to be aware of, to understand, the ways of the self. There is no one to escape from an inner realm through awareness and understanding -- there is just the awareness and understanding itself.

Discontentment leads to violence, as I see it, because the attempt to resolve discontent is in "becoming" contented, at peace. The attempt is a reaction to the discontent, and reaction is of thought and the thinker (the self). However, the awareness of discontent is not reaction but action, which is the abandonment of discontent.

max

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #20
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1404 posts in this forum Offline

aub b wrote:
Am not saying that awareness is the key, because I have seen people in K forums or elsewhere (not saying about you) brandishing the idea of awareness or some other ideas

because others heve the wrong idea you don't use it?
that seems to me dependend and not free. There nothing to open its free to go.

By using suffering as a key you suggest thet K. first suffered?

P.S.: "quote of today"
... as long as we think in terms of transformation, there cannot be transformation, either now or hereafter.

So.... using a key is thinking in terms of transformation.!!

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

This post was last updated by Wim Opdam Thu, 20 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #21
Thumb_stringio aub b France 112 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Yes, there is the need to be aware of, to understand, the ways of the self. There is no one to escape from an inner realm through awareness and understanding -- there is just the awareness and understanding itself.

Discontentment leads to violence, as I see it, because the attempt to resolve discontent is in "becoming" contented, at peace. The attempt is a reaction to the discontent, and reaction is of thought and the thinker (the self). However, the awareness of discontent is not reaction but action, which is the abandonment of discontent.

The self is a professional escapist. In fact, it is its main activity, to escape, therefore it is constantly moving, constantly in activity, because if it ceases to move, then it disappears, or rather fears appear. Fear is the mechanism that makes it to perpetuate its escaping, it is its motor. Why is it so ? I don't know but it is worth to look at.

Discontentment as I explained it is not a movement of becoming, so it does not lead to manifestations of violence. Because it is not in becoming, it is not to be resolved, it just is, so there is no conflict.

This post was last updated by aub b (account deleted) Thu, 20 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #22
Thumb_stringio aub b France 112 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Wim Opdam wrote:
because others heve the wrong idea you don't use it?
that seems to me dependend and not free. There nothing to open its free to go.

By using suffering as a key you suggest thet K. first suffered?

One has to be cautious with words. Words are abused and people abuse other people with them too.

In fact, no, I'm not saying that suffering is a key. Suffering is a reality and one has to deal with it. So either one escapes from it, and it is the activity of the self, either one faces it. Every human being has experienced suffering, it is unavoidable. I don't believe in any idea of an individual that has never suffered. It is part of human consciousness, and the brain that is common to every human being.

This post was last updated by aub b (account deleted) Thu, 20 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #23
Thumb_profiel Wim Opdam Belgium 1404 posts in this forum Offline

aub b wrote:
Words are abused and people abuse other people with them too.

Yes, an old friend told me:

"Everything that irritates us about others can lead us to an understanding of ourselves."(Carl Jung)

aub b wrote:
I don't believe in any idea of an individual that has never suffered.

I also don't believe in such an idea, but the suggestion was that that led to awareness and that's not the case.

Understanding ones SELF, it's limitation and it's endless ways to decieve oneself is a contingent condition for awareness.

Truth will unfold itself to those who enquire their own actions.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #24
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

aub b wrote:
Discontentment as I explained it is not a movement of becoming . . . it just is, so there is no conflict.

Are you saying that it is impossible to experience a condition of balance and harmony, or a state of quietness? If not content, at least conditions of balance, harmony and quietness are freedom from discontent.

max

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #25
Thumb_stringio Richard Nolet Canada 325 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

max greene wrote:
Discontentment leads to violence, as I see it, because the attempt to resolve discontent is in "becoming" contented, at peace. The attempt is a reaction to the discontent, and reaction is of thought and the thinker (the self). However, the awareness of discontent is not reaction but action, which is the abandonment of discontent.

I disagree with that. Discontentment is the very source of any change, of any transformation. Discontentment doesn't necesseraly lead to violence . Discontentment is not of the same nature as frustration. Seeing that something is wrong is not the same as frustration. If one is satified with the way things are, like your son being sent away by your government to war, then there will never be no change.

This post was last updated by Richard Nolet (account deleted) Thu, 20 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #26
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Richard Nolet wrote:
Discontentment is the very source of any change, of any transformation.

Take a look at today's quote, Richard. Not that Krishnamurti is the last word or an authority.

max

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #27
Thumb_stringio Richard Nolet Canada 325 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

Keep discontent alive

Is not discontent essential in our life, to any question, to any inquiry, to probing, to finding out what is the real, what is Truth, what is essential in life? I may have this flaming discontent in college; and then I get a good job and this discontent vanishes. I am satisfied, I struggle to maintain my family, I have to earn a livelihood and so my discontent is calmed, destroyed, and I become a mediocre entity satisfied with things of life, and I am not discontent. But the flame has to be maintained from the beginning to the end, so that there is true inquiry, true probing into the problem of what discontent is. Because the mind seeks very easily a drug to make it content with virtues, with qualities, with ideas, with actions, it establishes a routine and gets caught up in it. We are quite familiar with that, but our problem is not how to calm discontent, but how to keep it smoldering, alive, vital. All our religious books, all our gurus, all political systems pacify the mind, quieten the mind, influence the mind to subside, to put aside discontent and wallow in some form of contentment.Is it not essential to be discontented in order to find what is true?

J. Krishnamurti, The Book of Life

...and I agree.

This post was last updated by Richard Nolet (account deleted) Thu, 20 Aug 2015.

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #28
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Richard Nolet wrote:
Discontentment doesn't necessarily lead to violence.

I see discontentment as violence itself. Why? Because it implies separation, a duality -- there is discontent and on the other hand there is peace, contentment. Unless we are to live forever with discontent, we must somehow put it aside. How is this done? Not with the reaction of "doing something about it," but with the action of awareness.

max

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #29
Thumb_original_avatar max greene United States 5845 posts in this forum Offline

Richard, that is a very good citation (post 27).

But what happens when there is reaction as a result of discontent? The reaction will be violence, as all reaction is violence. It is only the action of awareness that is non-violent.

When there is an understanding (an awareness) of discontent, the action will be the choiceless action of understanding, and in understanding there is no longer discontent and violence.

When we act out of discontent, we are seeking to resolve the discontent by bringing about some different condition. To me, this is obvious. It is the "becoming" Krishnamurti also talks of.

max

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Thu, 20 Aug 2015 #30
Thumb_stringio Richard Nolet Canada 325 posts in this forum ACCOUNT DELETED

You know, the warrior is a very content man. He've found his way, his peace, his contentment. So are the succesful politicians and all the gurus of this earth. They are content and violent.

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