Krishnamurti & the Art of Awakening
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Thu, 28 May 2020 #121
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5970 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:

Clive: Is this not in contradiction to "seeing is action"? Are you suggesting, Dan, that after seeing 'what is', one still needs to somehow 'do something' about what is?

Dan: Yes unfortunately. "Seeing may be action" but seeing isn't necessarily 'change', is it? It can be seen pretty clearly that one has habits but that seeing doesn't immediately change long established behavior..that discipline, effort is required. But regarding seeing that the 'thinker is the thought', the 'experiencer is the experience' i.e., insight can reveal that but the division returns...I think K. has said that in that case, it wasn't really seen.

I am not at all sure about this. Doesn't 'seeing' always imply some sort of action takes place? At least psychologically, if not physically? Of course 'seeing' is not the same as 'looking'.

Huguette writes about this in #91 above.

This post was last updated by Clive Elwell Fri, 29 May 2020.

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Sat, 30 May 2020 #122
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5970 posts in this forum Offline

Dan, I wanted to go back to an earlier post of yours in this thread, @#82

Dan McDermott wrote:

So what is the need and significance that we are faced with? To realize that the 'thinker', the 'sufferer', is not separate from the thought, the suffering? After thousands of years of their 'separation' as being accepted as true, it is now upon us to see to see the falseness of that acceptance? No?

At the deepest level – the deepest I can see anyway – there exists this sense, this inherent assumption, this feeling, that there are two things in consciousness – me and my mind. Despite appearances, I can find no real evidence that this duality is real. But the mind carries on in this assumption. Me and mine.

Obviously anything that “I” try to do about this dichotomy merely continues it. “Doing”, for the mind, means “me” trying to do something about “it”.

You use the word “falseness”, Dan. But at the moment that the me is born (or the idea of the me), it does not see itself as false, does it? A moment later it might be seen – but is this just more duality in action that sees?

Is there anything else? Is there any movement in the mind that is not based in this duality?

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Sun, 31 May 2020 #123
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1868 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
At the deepest level – the deepest I can see anyway – there exists this sense, this inherent assumption, this feeling, that there are two things in consciousness – me and my mind.

Yes It's a certain kind of intelligence as K. put it, ( an intelligence of loss and gain?) that has been created. It's false but it's there. I've felt Clive that you, as I have been, trying to express (grasp) this thing about the 'me'. How could that be false, illusory? In a way, it explains why it hasn't really ever been questioned. It's so taken for granted that it's 'real'. So 'close'...

Clive Elwell wrote:
But at the moment that the me is born (or the idea of the me), it does not see itself as false, does it?

No, but when it's pointed out that it's false, it can look at itself and question: "Am I, is this, an illusion?"...

Clive Elwell wrote:
Is there anything else? Is there any movement in the mind that is not based in this duality?

I'd say No. It's our reality. Almost seamless except for moments of insight. That is why choiceless awareness of what is in the moment, is our only 'possibility' to see through this 'morass'. In the 'Now-ness', there is no 'room' for thought. Thought is time. There is no place for thought/time in the Now. Thought with time has created the 'center' out of the 'past' and obscured the Real...it is the 'hindrance' as I see it, that overshadows the Truth...when it ceases to be, the Truth is there.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 31 May 2020.

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Sun, 31 May 2020 #124
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3498 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
Clive Elwell wrote:

Is there anything else? Is there any movement in the mind that is not based in this duality?

I'd say No. It's our reality.

Yes...the mind of man is this, I would say.

Almost seamless except for moments of insight. That is why choiceless awareness of what is in the moment, is our only 'possibility' to see through this 'morass'.

See through it? Or see what it is? Understand it for what it is.

In the 'Now-ness', there is no 'room' for thought. Thought is time. There is no place for thought/time in the Now. Thought with time has created the 'center' out of the 'past' and obscured the Real...it is the 'hindrance' as I see it, that overshadows the Truth

If we see this, why does it continue...why does the movement of the me continue?

Let it Be

This post was last updated by Tom Paine Sun, 31 May 2020.

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Sun, 31 May 2020 #125
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1868 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
See through it? (the self-centered reality) Or see what it is? Understand it for what it is.

Maybe just different words 'understanding' and 'seeing through'...Using the example of being hypnotized say, to act or believe in a certain way. If I were to understand that what I was saying, doing, believing, etc. was not coming from 'me' but from someone who 'suggested' all this to me, that would be a 'seeing through' the illusion that 'I' was doing all this, wouldn't it? Wouldn't it at least weaken the 'power' of that suggestion?

Tom Paine wrote:
If we see this, why does it continue...why does the movement of the me continue?

I recall K. has said that if this is seen through, it's finished. I compare it to the dream state. Its unreality is realized immediately upon entering the 'waking state'(waking up): "I was dreaming". There's no doubt, no confusion about it...it was all a dream. It's gone, over...So similarly, if we were to 'awaken' through insight to the falseness of this self-centered reality and see totally the conditioned state we were living in, it would vanish, wouldn't it? There'd be no 'going back to it? Like the examples he has used of nationalism and organized religion, etc.? But those examples are a lot simpler and more 'external' than this 'dream' of 'me and mine'. Is it that with observation, insight, etc., our situation may not become clear to us in a flash as his and a few others did, but doesn't it lose some of its 'opacity' and 'become' more transparent? Allowing more room for insight?... I don't know.

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Sun, 31 May 2020.

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Sun, 31 May 2020 #126
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3498 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
But those examples are a lot simpler and more 'external' than this 'dream' of 'me and mine'. Is it that with observation, insight, etc., our situation may not become clear to us in a flash as his and a few others did, but doesn't it lose some of its 'opacity' and 'become' more transparent? Allowing more room for insight?... I don't know.

I don't know either. But it's more than a dream of 'me and mine' isn't it? I mean, it's more than a dream...but it's a total identification with my beliefs, knowledge, conclusions, opinions, ideals, ideas, religion, family, and so on. It's everything I am. Who would give that up? We have had insights probably that our beliefs aren't reality...our knowledge is limited...but somehow we hold on to the identifications at a deep level. What would put an end to it? Leaving that one up in the air for now.

Let it Be

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Sun, 31 May 2020 #127
Thumb_dm Dan McDermott United States 1868 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
We have had insights probably that our beliefs aren't reality...our knowledge is limited...but somehow we hold on to the identifications at a deep level. What would put an end to it?

Well, death will, won't it? But K. is saying rightly or wrongly that that 'stream' will just go on in the ones that come after us...and also no one is saying that you or I have to "give it up": the identifications, the attachments, the 'getting by best we can', etc. We have a "certain" kind of security with a certain intelligence of greed and acquisitiveness that will get us through...we can put up with the conflict and violence...so the question for those interested is "what would put an end to it?" While we are here alive, right? Is it a wrong question? Because it brings in the idea of 'time'? Where does the 'energy' come from for such an event to happen? An energy that can "break through" this 'dream' of 'me and mine'?

'Things' do look pretty bleak for us though, don't they? This great new brain that has hobbled itself and doesn't have a clue how to get 'free'? Well... as they say, "we'll see".

This post was last updated by Dan McDermott Mon, 01 Jun 2020.

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Mon, 01 Jun 2020 #128
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5970 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote @125:
s it that with observation, insight, etc., our situation may not become clear to us in a flash as his and a few others did, but doesn't it lose some of its 'opacity' and 'become' more transparent? Allowing more room for insight?... I don't know.

The realisation of the falseness of this duality IS there, and it DOES impact on our daily lives. If we listen to it, doesn't it determine what is possible and what is not possible in our daily thoughts and intentions? Or at least play a substantial part.

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Mon, 01 Jun 2020 #129
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5970 posts in this forum Offline

Tom Paine wrote:
but it's a total identification with my beliefs, knowledge, conclusions, opinions, ideals, ideas, religion, family, and so on. It's everything I am.

If it was a total identification, we would not be here discussing it, questioning it, would we?

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Mon, 01 Jun 2020 #130
Thumb_kinfonet_avatar Clive Elwell New Zealand 5970 posts in this forum Offline

Dan McDermott wrote:
so the question for those interested is "what would put an end to it?" While we are here alive, right? Is it a wrong question? Because it brings in the idea of 'time'?

i don't think it is a wrong question, but any answers that involve time must be wrong.

Dan McDermott wrote:
Where does the 'energy' come from for such an event to happen? An energy that can "break through" this 'dream' of 'me and mine'?

Well, K has said it comes when we cease to dissipate energy, no?

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Mon, 01 Jun 2020 #131
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3498 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Tom Paine wrote:

but it's a total identification with my beliefs, knowledge, conclusions, opinions, ideals, ideas, religion, family, and so on. It's everything I am.

C: If it was a total identification, we would not be here discussing it, questioning it, would we?

We do question yes, but we're still identified with it, none the less. Usually TOTALLY identified.

Let it Be

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Mon, 01 Jun 2020 #132
Thumb_donna_and_jim_fb_bw Tom Paine United States 3498 posts in this forum Offline

Clive Elwell wrote:
Dan McDermott wrote:

Where does the 'energy' come from for such an event to happen? An energy that can "break through" this 'dream' of 'me and mine'?

C: Well, K has said it comes when we cease to dissipate energy, no?

That breakthrough certainly can't come from 'me', right? Not when I'm constantly, actively perpetuating the self. Can you say more, Clive about what K might mean about not dissipating energy?

Let it Be

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